Monday, October 01, 2007

Shifting Targets: The US Plans for Iran

It's interesting. On the very day that Sir David Manning, the outgoing British Ambassador to the United States, tells us that - as far as he is concerned - the United States is determined to pursue a diplomatic solution to the Iranian problem, Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker is telling an altogether darker tale.

Manning appears to me to be determined to take the Bush administration at it's word. Which is simply astonishing when one considers that this is the same administration that assured us that it was not seeking war with Iraq and that all it wanted was for Saddam to disarm. We now know from the Downing Street memo and its Spanish equivalent that Bush was invading no matter what Saddam did, despite all his public rhetoric to the contrary.

Hersh reports that the emphasis within the administration has now shifted towards surgical strikes as the administration have now conceded that the case for war against Iran is one that they have won only amongst their most rabid supporters and that the public at large remain largely unconvinced.

During a secure videoconference that took place early this summer, the President told Ryan Crocker, the U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, that he was thinking of hitting Iranian targets across the border and that the British “were on board.”

At a White House meeting with Cheney this summer, according to a former senior intelligence official, it was agreed that, if limited strikes on Iran were carried out, the Administration could fend off criticism by arguing that they were a defensive action to save soldiers in Iraq. If Democrats objected, the Administration could say, “Bill Clinton did the same thing; he conducted limited strikes in Afghanistan, the Sudan, and in Baghdad to protect American lives.” The former intelligence official added,
“There is a desperate effort by Cheney et al. to bring military action to Iran as soon as possible. Meanwhile, the politicians are saying, ‘You can’t do it, because every Republican is going to be defeated, and we’re only one fact from going over the cliff in Iraq.’ But Cheney doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the Republican worries, and neither does the President.”
Hersh reports that although the President has still not issued an "execute order" to allow operations within Iran - and, indeed, may never do so - nevertheless, the increase in tempo towards an Iranian attack is startling.
“They’re moving everybody to the Iran desk,” one recently retired C.I.A. official said. “They’re dragging in a lot of analysts and ramping up everything. It’s just like the fall of 2002”—the months before the invasion of Iraq, when the Iraqi Operations Group became the most important in the agency.
The aim of the US now appears to be to play the victim, to say that they are reacting to Iranian interference in Iraq, an interference that they have never been able to prove.
General David Petraeus, the commander of the multinational forces in Iraq, in his report to Congress in September, buttressed the Administration’s case against Iran. “None of us, earlier this year, appreciated the extent of Iranian involvement in Iraq, something about which we and Iraq’s leaders all now have greater concern,” he said. Iran, Petraeus said, was fighting “a proxy war against the Iraqi state and coalition forces in Iraq.”
This is, of course, blatantly false. Indeed, Iraq's leaders have gone out of their way to stress that they regard the Iranians as "helpers" in Iraq, despite the US insistence in portraying the Iranians as responsible for the counter insurgency.
One would be forgiven for thinking that, if Iran were really the source of so much trouble in Iraq, that the Iraqi Prime Minister would share this American viewpoint. However, he is currently enjoying a three day visit to Tehran where he has been photographed holding hands with Ahmadinejad, which is very strange behaviour if the American accusations hold any validity.

Indeed, Mailiki is reported to have stated:
Unconfirmed media reports said Maliki had told Iranian officials they'd played a constructive role in the region.
Bush has responded to this by stating:
"Now if the signal is that Iran is constructive, I will have to have a heart-to-heart with my friend the prime minister, because I don't believe they are constructive. I don't think he in his heart of hearts thinks they're constructive either," he said.
Nor is this the first time in recent weeks that Bush has been at odds with Iran's neighbours about that country's intentions. At a recent meeting with President Karzai of Afghanistan, Bush was put out when Karzai stated that Iran was " a helper" in Afghanistan.
So, Petraeus and the US are claiming that the Iraqis agree with their assessments of Iranian interference when this is manifestly false. Both the Iraqis and the Afghans strongly disagree with the picture that the Bush administration insist on painting, but that's not stopping people like Petraeus from publicly stating the opposite.

And there are others questioning the American line on this:
Patrick Clawson, an expert on Iran at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, told me that “there are a lot of Iranians at any time inside Iraq, including those doing intelligence work and those doing humanitarian missions. It would be prudent for the Administration to produce more evidence of direct military training—or produce fighters captured in Iraq who had been trained in Iran.”
So, having failed to prove Iranian involvement in Iraq, and having armed Sunni insurgents ostensibly to fight al Qaeda in Iraq, the one thing that is blatant is that the US is failing to restore order to that country. Indeed, were order even a priority then one would expect the US to be engaging in talks with everyone, including the Iranians, a suggestion put forward by the Baker Report and rejected by Bush in favour of his "surge" policy.

In fact, according to Hersh, the opposite is taking place, with Cheney et al preparing plans for a series of attacks.

Cheney’s option is now for a fast in and out—for surgical strikes,” the former senior American intelligence official told me. The Joint Chiefs have turned to the Navy, he said, which had been chafing over its role in the Air Force-dominated air war in Iraq. “The Navy’s planes, ships, and cruise missiles are in place in the Gulf and operating daily. They’ve got everything they need—even AWACS are in place and the targets in Iran have been programmed. The Navy is flying FA-18 missions every day in the Gulf.” There are also plans to hit Iran’s anti-aircraft surface-to-air missile sites. “We’ve got to get a path in and a path out,” the former official said.

A Pentagon consultant on counterterrorism told me that, if the bombing campaign took place, it would be accompanied by a series of what he called “short, sharp incursions” by American Special Forces units into suspected Iranian training sites. He said, “Cheney is devoted to this, no question.”

So, despite what Sir David Manning is saying, all indications are that the Cheney cabal have lost none of their enthusiasm for striking Iran. Indeed, by claiming the Clinton analogy, the surgical strikes - which Cheney bizarrely insists will NOT be an act of war - may very well be the first stage of a more protracted campaign.
If the targets are not clearly defined, the bombing “will start as limited, but then there will be an ‘escalation special.’ Planners will say that we have to deal with Hezbollah here and Syria there. The goal will be to hit the cue ball one time and have all the balls go in the pocket. But add-ons are always there in strike planning.”
And all of this is taking place at a time when Mohamed ElBaradei is stating that the Iranians are years away from being able to produce a nuclear bomb.
The diplomat added, referring to hawks in the Bush Administration, “They don’t like ElBaradei, because they are in a state of denial. And now their negotiating policy has failed, and Iran is still enriching uranium and still making progress.” The diplomat expressed the bitterness that has marked the I.A.E.A.’s dealings with the Bush Administration since the buildup to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. “The White House’s claims were all a pack of lies, and Mohamed is dismissive of those lies,” the diplomat said.

Hans Blix, a former head of the I.A.E.A., questioned the Bush Administration’s commitment to diplomacy. “There are important cards that Washington could play; instead, they have three aircraft carriers sitting in the Persian Gulf,” he said. Speaking of Iran’s role in Iraq, Blix added, “My impression is that the United States has been trying to push up the accusations against Iran as a basis for a possible attack—as an excuse for jumping on them.”
So the same kind of people who told us that the US was looking for a peaceful solution to Iraq - Sir David Manning and others - are now telling us that the US is looking for a diplomatic solution to Iran. And the same people who told us that we were being led up the garden path before Iraq - ElBaradei and Hans Blix - are now telling us that the US is looking for an excuse to attack Iran.

Indeed, the belief that the Americans are looking for any excuse to attack Iran is so widespread that it is said to be influencing the way the Brits hand over intelligence to the US.

Vincent Cannistraro, a retired C.I.A. officer who has worked closely with his counterparts in Britain, added to the story: “The Brits told me that they were afraid at first to tell us about the incident—in fear that Cheney would use it as a reason to attack Iran.” The intelligence subsequently was forwarded, he said.

The retired four-star general confirmed that British intelligence “was worried” about passing the information along. “The Brits don’t trust the Iranians,” the retired general said, “but they also don’t trust Bush and Cheney.”

Despite Manning's claims, it is obvious that the Brown administration fear that the US is gearing up for an attack on Iran, an attack that will have disastrous consequences.

We've all been here before. The only difference between now and the period of time before the invasion of Iraq was that back then we all knew that nothing was going to stop an American invasion. Now, it's hard to believe that even this administration are dumb enough to launch an attack on Iran.

But, our incredulity apart, the signs on the ground are all exactly the same.

UPDATE:

Uri Avnery has a brilliant article at AntiWar.com which argues why Bush might be tempted to attack Iran and why doing so, although it is being pushed by pro-Israelis, might actually be incredibly harmful to Israeli interests. It's well worth reading.

He goes as far as to compare such a mistake as repeating the errors of Saddam himself:

One thing I am ready to predict with confidence: whoever pushes for war against Iran will come to regret it.

Some adventures are easy to get into but hard to get out of.

The last one to find this out was Saddam Hussein. He thought that it would be a cakewalk – after all, Khomeini had killed off most of the officers, and especially the pilots, of the shah's military. He believed that one quick Iraqi blow would be enough to bring about the collapse of Iran. He had eight long years of war to regret it.

Both Americans and Israelis may soon be feeling that the Iraqi mud is like whipped cream compared to the Iranian quagmire.

Click title for Hersh article.

15 comments:

Unknown said...

So, Petraeus and the US are claiming that the Iraqis agree with their assessments of Iranian interference when this is manifestly false.

Your basis for this being "manifestly false" seems to only be base on "Unconfirmed media reports said Maliki had told Iranian officials they'd played a constructive role in the region." Not exactly a strong basis for something being "manifestly false".

That doesn't exactly jive with other more recent (and substantiated) statements Maliki has made about Iran's activities in Iraq being unhelpful.

So, having failed to prove Iranian involvement in Iraq

Who do they need to prove this to? You? The Democrats are sufficiently convinced, given that the Senate passed the Lieberman-Kyl amendment 76-22 (including Hillary Clinton).

The military has been pretty straightforward about what the Iranians are doing. However you incorrectly believe that anything the military says must be fed from the current administration, ignoring the fact that these are career military officers who have served Democrat presidents as well. What about the career intelligence officers? Are they tools of the administration as well, when they stated in the NIE that "Iranian lethal support for select groups of Iraqi Shia militants clearly intensifies the conflict in Iraq"?

So I repeat, just who exactly do they need to provide proof to, when there is obviously exists enough proof to satisfy those who matter in the US? And furthermore, what proof could possibly be offered that you and those like you would accept? I'm pretty sure there is no proof they could offer that you would accept.

For those who have even the remotest military background, the fact that Iran is providing lethal aid to groups in Iraq is self-evident. When you start seeing the same exact weapons in Lebanon, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and those weapons are of known Iranian origin that do not natively exist in those theaters (RPG-29s and 240 mm rockets for example), then it doesn't take a detective to figure out what's going on.

Kel said...

That doesn't exactly jive with other more recent (and substantiated) statements Maliki has made about Iran's activities in Iraq being unhelpful.

Did you properly read that article before you linked to it? Maliki states that "our relationships with these countries (Iran and Syria) has improved to the point that they are not interfering in our internal affairs."

"There used to be support through borders for these militias. But it has ceased to exist."

The Democrats are sufficiently convinced, given that the Senate passed the Lieberman-Kyl amendment 76-22 (including Hillary Clinton).

The Democrats disgraceful passing of their own responsiblity to declare war to the Bush administration through that amendment has been addressed at other points on this blog.

I think it's typical of the Democratic spinelessness we witnessed before the invasion of Iraq.

For those who have even the remotest military background, the fact that Iran is providing lethal aid to groups in Iraq is self-evident.

You have yourself provided a quote from Maliki stating that this is no longer the case.

Anyway, I take it from the argument you are putting forward that you think expanding the current debacle to include Iran would be a good thing, yes?

Unknown said...

Did you properly read that article before you linked to it?

Yes, I did. His statements are inconsistent.

The Democrats disgraceful passing of their own responsiblity to declare war to the Bush...

And peering through the rhetoric I see that you fail to address the point that the Democrats are sufficiently convinced of Iran's involvement in Iraq.

You have yourself provided a quote from Maliki stating that this is no longer the case.

So then you believe that the military people on the ground are lying when they say they have captured these weapons? And you also believe that Maliki stating that the Iranians, whose actions in Iraq he refers to as unhelpful, are suddenly no longer providing lethal aid means that it must necessarily be true that the Iranians are no longer providing such aid?

Anyway, I take it from the argument you are putting forward that you think expanding the current debacle to include Iran would be a good thing, yes?

I haven't made any statements that should lead one to draw the conclusion that I believe expanding the conflict to include Iran would be a good idea. I have said that it is quite apparent that Iran is funding and fueling the Shiite militias, and that they are using Iranian provided weapons against US forces. As for what to do about it, I think they need to continue to be aggressive with Iranian IRGC and Qods force members in Iraq, and to step up policing of the border. I do not believe it is in our best interests to launch military strikes on Iran at this time. With that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were to do so sometime in 2008 and take the decision out of our hands.

Kel said...

Did you properly read that article before you linked to it?

Yes, I did. His statements are inconsistent.

Firstly, his statments are not incionsistent. He said "our relationships with these countries (Iran and Syria) has improved to the point that they are not interfering in our internal affairs."

"There used to be support through borders for these militias. But it has ceased to exist."

Nothing inconsistent there. They USED to supply things and no longer do.

Secondly, as you quoted him to back your argument, why did you choose to quote him saying something that you regard as inconsistent?

So then you believe that the military people on the ground are lying when they say they have captured these weapons?

No, none of us doubt that Iranian weapons have been found in Iraq, a country that they were at war with for some twelve years. What we can't establish is whether or not the Iranian government are actively involved in supplying them.

And you also believe that Maliki stating that the Iranians, whose actions in Iraq he refers to as unhelpful, are suddenly no longer providing lethal aid means that it must necessarily be true that the Iranians are no longer providing such aid?

Maliki didn't say what you are claiming. He said that Iran and Syria's actions USED to be unhelpful, but that they are NO LONGER supplying weapons. Maybe you should choose your quotes more carefully.

I do not believe it is in our best interests to launch military strikes on Iran at this time. With that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israelis were to do so sometime in 2008 and take the decision out of our hands.

I'm glad we agree that it would not be wise for the US to launch an attack on Iran.

I find it interesting that you think the Israelis might do so. Especially as the reason Bush is calling the Iranian National Guards terrorists is because the American public aren't buying the nuclear reason for the invasion as remotely plausible. Perhaps you'll back the Israelis when they make a move against this nuclear "threat"?

Unknown said...

Secondly, as you quoted him to back your argument, why did you choose to quote him saying something that you regard as inconsistent?

Because I'm showing that he's inconsistent on the subject of course.

But to stop this going in circles, I think we can both agree with the crux of the statements made in the WaPo article (ignoring the "unconfirmed media reports" that you mentioned). Then the only question that remains is whether or not Maliki's statements reflect the current reality.

I find it interesting that you think the Israelis might do so.

Why do you find it interesting? It seems pretty obvious to me that a nuclear Iran is not something Israel is prepared to live with, and for good reason. With that in mind, I think it's almost a foregone conclusion that Israel would use military force to stop Iran from getting nukes if they believed that diplomacy was exhausted and there were no other options.

Especially as the reason Bush is calling the Iranian National Guards terrorists is because the American public aren't buying the nuclear reason for the invasion as remotely plausible.

You are stating conjecture as fact. By its very definition, conjecture is not fact.

Perhaps you'll back the Israelis when they make a move against this nuclear "threat"?

I'll take the scare quotes around "threat" to mean that you do not believe it is likely or probable that the Iranians are seeking a nuclear weapons capability.

As for will I "back" the Israelis if they decide to attempt to use their military to halt Iran's nuclear ambitions, I guess it would depend on what your definition of "back" is. Would I understand why the Israelis would choose to militarily take out Iran's nuclear capabilities? While I don't think it is necessarily the most prudent choice at this time, I would certainly understand it.

And given that if the Israelis did launch an attack that there would now be a shooting war with Iran who would certainly target US assets, would I then support them? While I would likely not support the decision to launch an attack in the first place, the reality resulting from such an attack would force me to support them in the ensuing conflict, particularly since we would likely become involved as a result of Iran's retaliation. At that point, woulda-coulda-shoulda is pointless, and the present reality would have to be dealt with. Of course, some make a living off of woulda-coulda-shoulda and refuse to deal with present reality, but I digress.

I suspect Israel would have mass support in the US if such a conflict were to happen. Similarly, I suspect Iran would have next to no support in the US (outside of your Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types of course).

daveawayfromhome said...

Probably no one will read this, but I find it interesting that Jason has no issue with American interfence in the middle east, while he seems to imply that Iran has no similar right, even though Iraq is its neighbor. Not to mention the way that Iran itself is pincered between an always hostile America and its armies of occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan.
This does not justify aggression on the part of Iran, but considering America's history of meddling and outright interference in Central America (our neighbors), we've got a lot of nerve chastizing anyone else.
And before the bugaboo of nuclear arms rears its head, the UN's nuclear watchdog group (whose name I forget) has stated that Iran is far from having any weapons capability (which the Bush Administration disputes), just as they said that Iraq had no nuclear capabilities (which the Bush Administration also disputed) and which has since proved very, very true.

Kel said...

Secondly, as you quoted him to back your argument, why did you choose to quote him saying something that you regard as inconsistent?

Because I'm showing that he's inconsistent on the subject of course.

But there's nothing inconsistent at all in his statement, which is why I wonder if you read things properly before you link to them. It only appears inconsistent to you because you are trying to turn his statement into something he isn't saying.

It seems pretty obvious to me that a nuclear Iran is not something Israel is prepared to live with, and for good reason.

Why should the rest of the Middle East have to live with a nuclear Israel? Your argument would carry more weight if you were prepared to argue that Israel must disarm. It is the inevitable outcome of Israel's non-declared nuclear arsenal that other country's will eventually seek parity.

You are stating conjecture as fact.

I'm making a very obvious point. The Bush administration have wanted to attack Iran and have made no secret of that fact. ElBaradei has clearly stated that Iran does not have the capability to build a nuclear bomb, so the Bushites - backed disgracefully by the Democrats - have declared that the Iraqi National Guard are a terrorist entity. The end result is the same. The Bushites have given themselves another reason to bomb Iran.

And I notice that Bush supporters like yourself instantly take up the new charges and hold them as reasons why an attack on Iran would be honourable.

Dave makes a very good point that the US is interfering constantly in the Middle East, and you cite that Iranians are killing US troops, a charge which Bush has made and which - despite your almost pathological misreading of Maliki's statement - Maliki has said is no longer happening.

So Maliki says that Iran are no longer supplying the militias and the United Nations say Iran does not have the capability to produce a nuclear bomb and yet you would, reluctantly, find yourself supporting Israel after she carried out a completely illegal attack on the Iranians who are signatory's to the NNPT and allowing inspections by the NNPT, whilst Israel - who is a nuclear power - has not signed and does not allow inspections.

That no doubt sounds like a highly moral stance to you. To the "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types" - i.e people who believe in international law - it strikes me as one the most hypocritical things I have ever heard.

Any action by "your side" must, of course, be supported by you, despite the action being considered illegal under international law. No doubt you feel that international law is something that other country's must obey but America and Israel's nobility of purpose somehow excludes them from such petty considerations. This is what I mean when I say I think you display an authoritarian mindset and lack morality.

You really would back any action taken by the US.

I wonder, do you also include Army Generals in your generalisation that anyone who opposes bombing Iran must be "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types"? Because it is rumoured that some of them are not too happy about plans to attack Iran either.

Unknown said...

Why should the rest of the Middle East have to live with a nuclear Israel?

Let's try to stay focused on the real world for a minute. What does that have to do with Israel apparently not being willing to live with a nuclear armed Iran?

Your argument would carry more weight if you were prepared to argue that Israel must disarm.

What argument? I'm stating what I believe is Israel's position. What I think about that position is irrelevant.

It is the inevitable outcome of Israel's non-declared nuclear arsenal that other country's will eventually seek parity.

I'm not arguing this, at least as far as Iran and Syria go. And if they are seeking parity, it is quite probable that Israel may decide to weigh in on the subject. You're talking about some kind of moral relativism or something; I'm just trying to state what Israel's position seems to be, which is probably a bit more relevant to reality. What we think is or isn't fair or whatever doesn't really matter at this point.

The Bush administration have wanted to attack Iran and have made no secret of that fact.

You mean like when they have come right out and said that we have no plans to attack Iran?

have declared that the Iraqi National Guard are a terrorist entity. The end result is the same. The Bushites have given themselves another reason to bomb Iran.

It's the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), not the Iraqi National Guard. The IRGC has very extensive financial holdings. The IRGC even holds state contracts in the energy sector, as just one example. My understanding is that declaring them as a terrorist entity allows the US Treasury department to go after them through the world's banks. We did a similar (and very effective) tactic with North Korea, where we pressured banks to not do business with them or freeze their assets. Applying this pressure to the IRGC could be quite an effective weapon.

And I notice that Bush supporters like yourself instantly take up the new charges and hold them as reasons why an attack on Iran would be honourable.

Huh?

Maliki has said is no longer happening.

So because Maliki says it is no longer happening, it must necessarily be true. Yet when Bush says he is not planning on attacking Iran, that's necessarily a lie. The logic is boggling.

...find yourself supporting Israel

Let me be quite clear so there is no chance for any misunderstanding. If a shooting war breaks out between Israel and Iran, I will certainly want Israel to be victorious.

That no doubt sounds like a highly moral stance to you.

It's a practical stance. In a shooting war between Iran and Israel, it is in my country's best interest, and in my belief the Western world's best interest, that Israel come out the winner.

To the "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types" - i.e people who believe in international law

I'm not sure how one goes reads "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types" and takes that to mean "people who believe in international law. Once again, mind boggling.

Any action by "your side" must, of course, be supported by you

Another huge leap of logic, unsupported by any statements I have made. I'll ignore the rest of the blathering rhetoric and innuendo in that paragraph.

You really would back any action taken by the US.

Again, you are fixating on me and extrapolating precise statements into huge generalities. Just stop already.

I wonder, do you also include Army Generals in your generalisation that anyone who opposes bombing Iran must be "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types"?

Yet another instance of you ignoring what I said, and instead quite undeftly twisting my words into what you wish I'd said. I have made no generalization that anyone who opposes bombing must be "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types". You might want to scroll up a bit and re-read what I said there. It certainly has nothing even remotely relating to "anyone who opposes bombing Iran". Hell, I even stated that I wasn't a big fan of bombing Iran.

Kel said...

Let's try to stay focused on the real world for a minute. What does that have to do with Israel apparently not being willing to live with a nuclear armed Iran?

Your ability to embrace double standards is best illustrated by the fact that you can even ask that question.

You appear to have no difficulty with Israel - a nuclear nation that has not signed up to the NNPT and therefore has not pledged to eventually disarm itself of nuclear weapons which is the basic pledge nuclear nations make when they sign the NNPT - attacking another nation, which is signed up to the NNPT, for attempting to create a nuclear bomb which Israel herself possesses and which the UN say that Iran does not have the ability to make.

You are sometimes simply mindbending in your hypocrisy.

What we think is or isn't fair or whatever doesn't really matter at this point.

What is fair matters a great deal. You are simply trying to make it irrelevant because what Israel is proposing is so breathtakingly hypocritical. If Israel thinks nuclear weapons are wrong and that other country's shouldn't have them then she should sign up to NNPT and pledge to disarm. Until she does so, she has no right to attack other country's for attempting to obtain weapons that she herself possesses.

So because Maliki says it is no longer happening, it must necessarily be true. Yet when Bush says he is not planning on attacking Iran, that's necessarily a lie. The logic is boggling.

I'm not saying anything is true simply because Maliki states it, although I notice that you appear to think anything US commanders say is true even if they bring forward no concrete evidence to support their claim. Indeed, you ignore the fact that many US Generals are at pains to point out that they have no proof that the Iranians are behind this. And the fact that the neo-cons want to attack Iran is simply a matter of public record. If you are so deaf that you don't know the mutterings coming from the Cheney camp concerning this subject then you are simply not worth arguing with.

I'm not sure how one goes reads "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types" and takes that to mean "people who believe in international law.

The Israeli action you are on record as saying that you would reluctantly support would be a violation of international law. You say that the only people in the US who would object to this violation of international law are "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types". Why do you find me pointing out exactly what you have said as "mindboggling"?

I'll ignore the rest of the blathering rhetoric and innuendo in that paragraph.

I'll basically rephrase what I think. You have an authoritarian mindset which means you automatically support others in positions of authority even when you can find no moral stance to defend their positions. At that point you instantly declare that morality has nothing to do with "the real world".

It's why you can find yourself asking questions like the one at the top of this thread and arguing that fairness has nothing to do with anything.

It's an utterly immoral position. And yet it's the one you choose to argue!

Unknown said...

Your ability to embrace double standards is best illustrated by the fact that you can even ask that question.

Israel's constitution doesn't call for it exporting the revolution. Iran's does. Israel is not a state sponsor of international terrorism. Iran is. So yeah, there certainly is a double standard.

What is fair matters a great deal.

Not having spent my life confined to an island, only venturing outside to visit Disney World and the Eiffel Tower, restricting my knowledge of the greater world to what other people have written, I have quickly learned that the real world is far from fair.

If Israel thinks nuclear weapons are wrong and that other country's shouldn't have them

I don't recall seeing anywhere where Israel has stated they think nukes are wrong and that others shouldn't have them. On the other hand, I believe they have stated quite succinctly that they are not prepared to live with Iran in particular having nukes. While this might not seem fair in the Utopian dream world sense, I can easily understand how Israel might have a problem with a nation who is fighting a proxy war with them and has promised to wipe them off the map getting there hands on nukes. If they see it as a matter of their survival, then I'm not sure where "fair" comes into play.

I'm not saying anything is true simply because Maliki states it, although I notice that you appear to think anything US commanders say is true

Having been a part of the military institution, I know what sounds credible to me or not, so yes, I will generally believe the US military over an Iraqi politician.

The Israeli action you are on record as saying that you would reluctantly support would be a violation of international law.

Another false representation of my statements. I said that in a shooting war between Israel and Iran, I will support Israel. I will not support a state sponsor of international terrorism whose constitution is dedicated to spreading its revolution.

You say that the only people in the US who would object to this violation of international law

I know American English isn't that different that you should be having so many issues with it. What I clearly said is that almost nobody in the US (outside the loony fringe of course) would support Iran in a war against Israel. What part of that are you having a hard time comprehending?

Why do you find me pointing out exactly what you have said as "mindboggling"?

There will be much rejoicing throughout the land the day you point out exactly what I said, instead of putting some bizarre misrepresentation on what I have said.

I'll basically rephrase what I think...

I'm a bit dense so rephrasing it hasn't helped, particularly since what you are going on about bears little resemblance to any statements I've made or positions I've taken.

Kel said...

Israel is not a state sponsor of international terrorism.

Israel engages in state terrorism almost daily through her terrorising of the Palestinian people.

She has more UN resolutions against her than any other nation on Earth. She has been carrying out an illegal occupation of the Palestinian people for the last forty years, the longest occupation in modern history.

The simple fact is that your nation allows Israel to continue this blatant illegality, as the voting record of the UN clearly shows. The American veto is the only thing that allows Israel to continue her present behaviour, behaviour which I think is deeply harmful to Israel and the US. I think the US is a dreadful friend of Israel, the equivalent of a kind Aunt who feeds an obese child chocolate.

Not having spent my life confined to an island, only venturing outside to visit Disney World and the Eiffel Tower, restricting my knowledge of the greater world to what other people have written, I have quickly learned that the real world is far from fair.

(Gratuitous insults noted in bold. You have no idea of how far I have travelled.)

The question wasn't whether or not the world is fair, the question was whether or not fairness matters.

I don't recall seeing anywhere where Israel has stated they think nukes are wrong and that others shouldn't have them. On the other hand, I believe they have stated quite succinctly that they are not prepared to live with Iran in particular having nukes.

Israel has no right to demand that other nations are not allowed the protection which she affords herself. That's the point of the NNPT. Country's which have them will disarm and countries which don't have them will desist from developing them.

I will generally believe the US military over an Iraqi politician.

A more accurate statement would read, "As a person with an authoritarian mindset, I will always believe what any American Republican in power tells me, no matter how fantastical or lacking in evidence their claims may be."

The Israeli action you are on record as saying that you would reluctantly support would be a violation of international law.

Another false representation of my statements. I said that in a shooting war between Israel and Iran, I will support Israel.

But the "shooting war" we are talking about is Israel attacking Iran over her suspected nuclear sites. As the UN says that Iran is not developing nuclear weapons, then this attack would not be under article 51 of the UN charter; it would therefore be a clear violation of international law.

I know American English isn't that different that you should be having so many issues with it. What I clearly said is that almost nobody in the US (outside the loony fringe of course) would support Iran in a war against Israel. What part of that are you having a hard time comprehending?

There will be much rejoicing throughout the land the day you point out exactly what I said, instead of putting some bizarre misrepresentation on what I have said.


Okay, let's talk about exactly what you said. Anyone reading this can simply scroll up and read your comments.

You said, whilst talking of a possible Israeli action, an action that I have already shown would be illegal, "And given that if the Israelis did launch an attack that there would now be a shooting war with Iran who would certainly target US assets, would I then support them? While I would likely not support the decision to launch an attack in the first place, the reality resulting from such an attack would force me to support them in the ensuing conflict, particularly since we would likely become involved as a result of Iran's retaliation."

So you would reluctantly support them.

And who wouldn't support them in your view?

I suspect Israel would have mass support in the US if such a conflict were to happen. Similarly, I suspect Iran would have next to no support in the US (outside of your Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types of course).

The only people who wouldn't support them are my "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types".

So, according to your own logic, the only people who wouldn't - reluctantly or otherwise - support the Israelis in this illegal attack are "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types".

Where do you feel you have been misrepresented?

Unknown said...

Israel engages in state terrorism almost daily through her terrorising of the Palestinian people.

This is just pure rhetoric and not according to any definition of terrorism I'm familiar with. I'd dig up my text books but I've just moved and they're still packed. The UN definition is "the use of violence against unarmed civilians for political objectives", which quite obviously does not apply either (Israel as a matter of policy does not target Palestinian civilians with violence, and its violence against armed factions is self-defense and not the means to some political end).

She has more UN resolutions against her than any other nation on Earth

General assembly resolutions, not security council resolutions. And without bothering to check the veracity of this, I'll just take your word on it for now. Everyone gets a vote in the general assembly, and given that the general assembly is a pretty anti-Israeli (and anti-American) venue, it almost goes without saying.

She has been carrying out an illegal occupation of the Palestinian people for the last forty years

Maybe the Palestinians should try to achieve some sort of realistic peace with Israel. As long as groups like Hamas maintain their platforms, and as long as they insist on the so-called "right of return", it's not likely to happen.

The American veto is the only thing that allows Israel to continue her present behaviour

I always thought our military aid to them had something to do with it as well. But without arguing the point further, would you accept by your own logic then that the only thing that allows Iran to continue its behavior is the veto of Russia and China?

the question was whether or not fairness matters.

To the aggrieved, I'm sure it does.

Israel has no right to demand that other nations are not allowed the protection which she affords herself.

Israel has the right to self-defense. Iran has openly stated its desire to destroy Israel and has launched a proxy war against Israel. Iran is the aggressor, so it shouldn't be surprised if Israel preemptively exercises its right of self-defense.

I will always believe what any American Republican in power tells me

Obviously not what I said, but I'm curious, do you assume that all in the US military are Republicans? Do you further assume that it is the role of the career military to participate in partisan politics?

Where do you feel you have been misrepresented?

Much better with the direct quotes.

support the Israelis in this illegal attack are "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types".

I am not, as I have quite clearly said, supporting an attack on Iran. Given that a conflict breaks out however, regardless of if that is as a result of Israel preemptively striking at Iran's nuclear targets or as a result of Iran's activities through her proxies, and given that I may not support the actions that led to the state of conflict, if such a conflict were to occur I would certainly certainly hope that Israel comes out on top.

However, that was not your original spin on my quote. Instead you chose to spin it as:

To the "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types" - i.e people who believe in international law.

This is of course nowhere close to what I was saying. In any event, I'm not sure how much more clear I can be other than "I don't support an attack on Iran", which I have stated repeatedly.

Kel said...

The UN definition is "the use of violence against unarmed civilians for political objectives", which quite obviously does not apply either (Israel as a matter of policy does not target Palestinian civilians with violence, and its violence against armed factions is self-defense and not the means to some political end).

The list of Israel's acts of state terrorism against the civilian populations of Palestine and it's neighbours in the region is well documented.

"In flagrant and grave breach of international law, Israel, the occupying Power, continues to commit war crimes and acts of State terrorism throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory as well as in the region. On Sunday, 26 September 2004, yet another extrajudicial killing was carried out by Israel against a Palestinian man, this time in the territory of a sovereign State, when a car bomb was detonated in the Syrian capital of Damascus, killing Mr. Izzedine Al-Sheikh Khalil, a leader of Hamas, and wounding at least three other people."

"This act cannot but be deemed a blatant act of State terrorism. While there has been no formal admission of responsibility by Israel for the bombing, the Israeli media and spokesmen have made it very clear that this is a fact, with some actually boasting about Israeli involvement in the attack."

"This latest criminal act follows recent, repeated declarations made by Israeli officials, including the Prime Minister himself, of their intention to continue targeting Palestinian leaders. Indeed, the occupying Power has not ceased to carry out extrajudicial killings and military raids and attacks against the Palestinian civilian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem."

General assembly resolutions, not security council resolutions.

Every so often, especially when we discuss Israel/Palestine, you reveal an ignorance of the subject that is simply breathtaking. I really think you get most of your info on this from Zionist websites.

UN Security Council Resolutions against Israel. Not General Assembly Resolutions, Security Council Resolutions. Not all are against Israel but, as you can clearly see the vast majority are.

Resolution 42: The Palestine Question (5 March 1948) Requests recommendations for the Palestine Commission
Resolution 43: The Palestine Question (1 Apr 1948) Recognizes "increasing violence and disorder in Palestine" and requests that representatives of "the Jewish Agency for Palestine and the Arab Higher Committee" arrange, with the Security Council, "a truce between the Arab and Jewish Communities of Palestine...Calls upon Arab and Jewish armed groups in Palestine to cease acts of violence immediately."
Resolution 44: The Palestine Question (1 Apr 1948) Requests convocation of special session of the General Assembly
Resolution 46: The Palestine Question (17 Apr 1948) As the United Kingdom is the Mandatory Power, "it is responsible for the maintenance of peace and order in Palestine." The Resolutions also "Calls upon all persons and organizations in Palestine" to stop importing "armed bands and fighting personnel...whatever their origin;...weapons and war materials;...Refrain, pending the future government of Palestine...from any political activity which might prejudice the rights, claims, or position of either community;...refrain from any action which will endager the safety of the Holy Places in Palestine."
Resolution 48: The Palestine Question (23 Apr 1948)
Resolution 49: The Palestine Question (22 May 1948)
Resolution 50: The Palestine Question (29 May 1948)
Resolution 53: The Palestine Question (7 Jul 1948)
Resolution 54: The Palestine Question (15 Jul 1948)
Resolution 56: The Palestine Question (19 Aug 1948)
Resolution 57: The Palestine Question (18 Sep 1948)
Resolution 59: The Palestine Question (19 Oct 1948)
Resolution 60: The Palestine Question (29 Oct 1948)
Resolution 61: The Palestine Question (4 Nov 1948)
Resolution 62: The Palestine Question (16 Nov 1948)
Resolution 66: The Palestine Question (29 Dec 1948)
Resolution 72: The Palestine Question (11 Aug 1949)
Resolution 73: The Palestine Question (11 Aug 1949)
Resolution 89 (17 November 1950): regarding Armistice in 1948 Arab-Israeli War and "transfer of persons".
Resolution 92: The Palestine Question (8 May 1951)
Resolution 93: The Palestine Question (18 May 1951)
Resolution 95: The Palestine Question (1 Sep 1951)
Resolution 100: The Palestine Question (27 Oct 1953)
Resolution 101: The Palestine Question (24 Nov 1953)
Resolution 106: The Palestine Question (29 Mar 1955) 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid.
Resolution 107: The Palestine Question (30 Mar)
Resolution 108: The Palestine Question (8 Sep)
Resolution 111: " ... 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
Resolution 127: " ... 'recommends' Israel suspends its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
Resolution 162: " ... 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
Resolution 171: " ... determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
Resolution 228: " ... 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
Resolution 237: " ... 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
Resolution 242 (November 22, 1967): Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area. Calls on Israel's neighbors to end the state of belligerency and calls upon Israel to reciprocate by withdraw its forces from land claimed by other parties in 1967 war. Interpreted commonly today as calling for the Land for peace principle as a way to resolve Arab-Israeli conflict
Resolution 248: " ... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
Resolution 250: " ... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
Resolution 251: " ... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
Resolution 252: " ... 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
Resolution 256: " ... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
Resolution 259: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
Resolution 262: " ... 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
Resolution 265: " ... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
Resolution 267: " ... 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
Resolution 270: " ... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
Resolution 271: " ... 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
Resolution 279: " ... 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 280: " ... 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
Resolution 285: " ... 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
Resolution 298: " ... 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
Resolution 313: " ... 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
Resolution 316: " ... 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
Resolution 317: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
Resolution 332: " ... 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
Resolution 337: " ... 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
Resolution 338 (22 October 1973): cease fire in Yom Kippur War
Resolution 339 (23 October 1973): Confirms Res. 338, dispatch UN observers.
Resolution 347: " ... 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
Resolution 425 (1978): 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon". Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon was completed as of 16 June 2000.
Resolution 350 (31 May 1974) established the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force, to monitor the ceasefire between Israel and Syria in the wake of the Yom Kippur War.
Resolution 427: " ... 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
Resolution 444: " ... 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
Resolution 446 (1979): 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
Resolution 450: " ... 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
Resolution 452: " ... 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
Resolution 465: " ... 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
Resolution 467: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
Resolution 468: " ... 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
Resolution 469: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians".
Resolution 471: " ... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
Resolution 476: " ... 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
Resolution 478 (20 August 1980): 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'.
Resolution 484: " ... 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors".
Resolution 487: " ... 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility".
Resolution 497 (17 December 1981) decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith.
Resolution 498: " ... 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
Resolution 501: " ... 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
Resolution 508:
Resolution 509: " ... 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
Resolution 515: " ... 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in".
Resolution 517: " ... 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 518: " ... 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
Resolution 520: " ... 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
Resolution 573: " ... 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.
Resolution 587 " ... 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
Resolution 592: " ... 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
Resolution 605: " ... 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.
Resolution 607: " ... 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Resolution 608: " ... 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
Resolution 636: " ... 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 641: " ... 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 672: " ... 'condemns' Israel for "violence against Palestinians" at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
Resolution 673: " ... 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
Resolution 681: " ... 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 694: " ... 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Resolution 726: " ... 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.
Resolution 1559 (2 September 2004) called upon Lebanon to establish its sovereignty over all of its land and called upon Syria to end their military presence in Lebanon by withdrawing its forces and to cease intervening in internal Lebanese politics. The resolution also called on all Lebanese militias to disband.
Resolution 1583 (28 January 2005) calls on Lebanon to assert full control over its border with Israel. It also states that "the Council has recognized the Blue Line as valid for the purpose of confirming Israel's withdrawal pursuant to resolution 425.
Resolution 1648 (21 December 2005) renewed the mandate of United Nations Disengagement Observer Force until 30 June 2006.
Resolution 1701 (11 August 2006) called for the full cessation of hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah.

Everyone gets a vote in the general assembly, and given that the general assembly is a pretty anti-Israeli (and anti-American) venue, it almost goes without saying.

The authoritarian mindset that I always talk of is clearly illustrated here. Firstly, many resolutions are Security Council Resolutions which undermines your basic point. But, more importantly, resolutions taken at the General Assembly are interesting as here the permanent members veto does not apply. This is a more accurate reflection of world opinion as no-one can veto here. So, in your response to any condemnation of Israeli behaviour by this forum, you simply cannot for a millisecond consider that the rest of the world might have a point, even if Israel and the US are the only two country's in the world to vote against a resolution. No, so you decide - with no evidence of any kind whatsoever - that THE ENTIRE WORLD must be either anti-Semitic or anti-American. For the alternative, that Israel might be in the wrong in any action, is something that you simply can't bring yourself to even consider.

Despite, as your claims that Israel has only General Assembly Resolutions against her clearly shows, knowing very little about the subject. It's just knee jerk support with you.

And what's scary is that you don't consider that an extremist position.

Maybe the Palestinians should try to achieve some sort of realistic peace with Israel.

That's a joke right? The Israelis have for years refused to negotiate whilst illegally building on Palestinian land.

But without arguing the point further, would you accept by your own logic then that the only thing that allows Iran to continue its behavior is the veto of Russia and China?

Of course I would agree.

the question was whether or not fairness matters.

To the aggrieved, I'm sure it does.

I'm glad you have finally agreed with me. Your original argument was that fairness didn't matter and should be left to one side. You have completely reversed your position there.

Israel has no right to demand that other nations are not allowed the protection which she affords herself.

Israel has the right to self-defense.

All nations have the right to self defence, not just Israel. And no-one is currently attacking Israel.

Iran has openly stated its desire to destroy Israel and has launched a proxy war against Israel.

Iran has not stated it wants to destroy Israel, certainly not if you are referring to Ahmadinejad's speech which has been hyped beyond belief.

Obviously not what I said, but I'm curious, do you assume that all in the US military are Republicans?

Not at all.

Do you further assume that it is the role of the career military to participate in partisan politics?

Not at all but I do think Patraeus is giving the administration what they want.

I am not, as I have quite clearly said, supporting an attack on Iran. Given that a conflict breaks out however, regardless of if that is as a result of Israel preemptively striking at Iran's nuclear targets or as a result of Iran's activities through her proxies, and given that I may not support the actions that led to the state of conflict, if such a conflict were to occur I would certainly certainly hope that Israel comes out on top.

That is why I used the word reluctant. If Israel attacks Iran (outwith of the UN Charter and therefore illegally) you will not support the attack but you will continue to support Israel and hope she is triumphant. The truth is that no matter what Israel does or doesn't do, ethical or otherwise, after you are finished tut tutting she can be assured that you will eventually wish her well. But you can pretend to yourself that you are on the moral high ground for condemning the original attack - which you disagree with - but hope that in any subsequent conflict this attack causes that Israel will be valiant. And that's you not giving your support! It's a laughable distinction you are making.

To the "Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types" - i.e people who believe in international law.

This is of course nowhere close to what I was saying.

I never said that's what you were saying, that is what I am saying. The Noam Chomsky lunatic fringe types are the people who you say would condemn the attack. As the attack would be illegal under international law, I think that amounts to the same thing. Or do you think because you would not support the initial attack that this is enough to pretend that you would be agreeing with international law by condemning the attack but nevertheless wishing Israel every success with the consequences of her illegal act?

Or do you imagine that all Americans would behave the same as yourself and tut tut at the illegality but then wave their Israeli flags and wish her well. Except for Noam Chomsky types who might condemn the attack and ask that Israel be actually punished for breaking international law?

Unknown said...

The list of Israel's acts of state terrorism against the civilian populations of Palestine and it's neighbours in the region is well documented.

You link to a letter written to the UN Security Council by the Palestinian representative to the UN. That's not exactly making your point that Israel's actions meet the UN's definition of terrorism.

This act cannot but be deemed a blatant act of State terrorism.

Well, as a leader of Hamas is not an unarmed civilian, and assuming that it was Israel who carried out the act, I don't see how it meets the UN's definition. What it is more rightly called is an assassination.

Every so often, especially when we discuss Israel/Palestine, you reveal an ignorance of the subject that is simply breathtaking

Actually I'm quite surprised you knew the difference between a GA resolution and a SC resolution. What I did not take into account was the quite liberal definition of "resolutions against" being used. Many of these resolutions call on all parties of the conflict to engage in some action (46 for example) and are not aimed specifically at Israel (or what was then known as the Jewish Agency). Then you can look at 48 which simply reiterates 46, being directed at all parties involved. In fact, many of these condemn all parties involved. That your list is of UNSC resolutions that are all "against" Israel is certainly misleading. However, given that this conflict has been going on for over fifty years with lots of resolutions on the conflict from the UNSC, and without actually counting, I accept that there are more UNSC resolutions that deal with the Israeli-Palestinian and Israel-Arab conflicts than on any other topic and also therefore more UNSC resolutions that likely deal with Israel than any other country.

must be either anti-Semitic or anti-American

Interesting. I used the term anti-Israeli but you changed it to the term anti-Semitic. Some hidden recognition of yours boiling to the surface that they are often one and the same perhaps?

as your claims that Israel has only General Assembly Resolutions against her clearly shows,

My intention was never to claim that only GA resolutions were passed against Israel, as even someone who gets all their information from the Internet would know otherwise. I suspected however that you were referring to the vast number of GA resolutions deploring various Israeli actions, not the UNSC resolutions. You have indicated that my assumption was false. Fair enough.

The Israelis have for years refused to negotiate whilst illegally building on Palestinian land.

And the Palestinians for years have been blowing up children in pizza parlors. It takes two parties to negotiate and the Palestinians have certainly never made the effort.

Your original argument was that fairness didn't matter

No, my stance is that fairness often has little influence on reality.

And no-one is currently attacking Israel.

Well, Hezbollah quite recently did, and Hamas or affiliates are daily launching missiles into Israel, so I think that statement is a bit disingenuous.

Iran has not stated it wants to destroy Israel, certainly not if you are referring to Ahmadinejad's speech which has been hyped beyond belief.

Hyped beyond belief? That's a bit of an apologist remark. These comments, echoed by Ahmadinejad, go back to Khomeini.

Not at all but I do think Patraeus is giving the administration what they want.

So you think that Petraeus is just telling people things the administration wants to hear, or that the things that he says also happen to be what the administration wants to hear?

But you can pretend to yourself that you are on the moral high ground for condemning the original attack

For this statement to hold you must first agree that what is moral necessarily coincides with what you are referring to as "international law". I can't say I've seen much morality coming out of the UN.

Of course left out of all this is that if Israel were to attack Ira, Iran would likely attack US forces in the theater, probably through proxies. What would you have us do in such an event?

Kel said...

You link to a letter written to the UN Security Council by the Palestinian representative to the UN.

The letter described the kind of acts I was talking about.

Actually I'm quite surprised you knew the difference between a GA resolution and a SC resolution

I've argued this stuff on the newsgroups for years, Jason. I know every Israeli argument there is. Had you been a pro-Israeli newsgroup junkie you would have offered the argument that all the resolutions were not made under Chapter 7 and are therefore useless and that the Geneva Conventions is not binding on Israel. (Don't worry I have answers to all of those points)

However, given that this conflict has been going on for over fifty years with lots of resolutions on the conflict from the UNSC, and without actually counting, I accept that there are more UNSC resolutions that deal with the Israeli-Palestinian and Israel-Arab conflicts than on any other topic and also therefore more UNSC resolutions that likely deal with Israel than any other country.

And after waffling on counting the resolutions, which I has taken pains to point out were not all against Israel, with this sentence you finally conclude that what I said was correct.

Interesting. I used the term anti-Israeli but you changed it to the term anti-Semitic. Some hidden recognition of yours boiling to the surface that they are often one and the same perhaps?

When you use the term anti-Israeli I take it that you are hinting at some latent anti-Semitism, after all you have come right out and made the charge overtly before.

However, you have managed to skip past how ludicrous it is of you to presume that the entire world must be anti-Israeli and anti-American rather than concede that there is any possibility that Israel might be in the wrong.

And the Palestinians for years have been blowing up children in pizza parlors.

Exactly. That's why the Israelis should be negotiatiing. To stop this bloody madness.

Hyped beyond belief? That's a bit of an apologist remark. These comments, echoed by Ahmadinejad, go back to Khomeini.

Those are exactly the remarks I was thinking of. The translation was deliberately misinterpreted. He did not say what they claim. I have spoken of this before on here and am rushing out the door so I can't be bothered to go and find the actual translation.

For this statement to hold you must first agree that what is moral necessarily coincides with what you are referring to as "international law". I can't say I've seen much morality coming out of the UN.

Ah, you are learning the tactics of right wing newsgroup users fast Jason. When you don't like what international law says, one must first attack the UN and then hint - and I'm sure that's why you used quotation marks - that international law doesn't actually exist.

Of course left out of all this is that if Israel were to attack Ira, Iran would likely attack US forces in the theater, probably through proxies. What would you have us do in such an event?

If attacked the US would have to respond. But what punishment would you want meted out to Israel for breaking international law and committing a "crime against peace" which Nuremburg said was "the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole?"

I mean you have already said that you would disagree with such an action by Israel, so show me how much you would disapprove. Shall we take sanctions against her?

Or is your dissapproval, as I suspect, wafer thin?