John McCain--POW story
The supposed Republican war hero John McCain is said to have traded secrets with the Vietnamese whilst in captivity. Certainly there are many veterans of the Vietnam war who do not buy the story which McCain is pushing. Indeed, there were many serving soldiers who wanted McCain charged when the war was over because of his actions.
Indeed, other POW's who were imprisoned with McCain were given their promotion when they were freed, it is rather notable that McCain did not get any promotion as the top brass knew exactly what he did whilst he was held captive.
Here Colonel Earl Hopper tells the story of McCain's time as a POW and goes as far as to call McCain a "traitor" who caused the death of many Americans. It's quite a different story from the one which McCain is pedalling.Phung Van Chung, 70, who was a Communist Party official at the time, claims McCain was quickly singled out for softer treatment, adding: “I found out he was the son of an American admiral, so the top people wanted to keep him as a live witness so they could use him for negotiations.”
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17 comments:
Jason, firstly I do not believe that John McCain is "better than" me, although it is no surprise at all that someone with an authoritarian mind like yourself would make such an assumption. I'm sure there are scores of people who you imagine "better than" you.
Secondly, Colonel Hopper makes his case against McCain. I have no idea whether what he says is true, neither do you.
Although I note that people become a "complete piece of shit" for even asking whether or not McCain's claims are accurate. But that's typical of you Jason. You have your narrative and you care not whether or not it is true as it suits your purposes.
Certainly Hopper and many others are claiming that McCain acted in a treasonous way, and I think their claims are certainly worth examining. I'm sure examining them is at least as valid as Republican claims concerning John Kerry and Vietnam were during the last election.
Tell me, did you condemn that at the time, Mr Independent?
There are many things about McCain which are worthy of further examination, not least that notorious temper of his and the fact that he refuses to say that he didn't call his wife a c---.
Jason, firstly I do not believe that John McCain is "better than" me, although it is no surprise at all that someone with an authoritarian mind like yourself would make such an assumption. I'm sure there are scores of people who you imagine "better than" you.
To be precise, I was implying that most people who have chosen service in the military, such as John McCain, are generally better than those like yourself. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
I have no idea whether what he says is true, neither do you.
If you have no idea, then do some research, blindly repeating information that had been dismissed discredited many years ago. And here's a more recent and smaller article addressing the same issue.
Although I note that people become a "complete piece of shit" for even asking whether or not McCain's claims are accurate.
Yes, exactly. His quality of service is extremely well documented with supporting facts, and those who ignore those facts and instead try to viciously defame him to support their own political agendas, referring to them as "pieces of shit" is actually quite mild given the disgust they deserve.
Certainly Hopper and many others are claiming that McCain acted in a treasonous way, and I think their claims are certainly worth examining.
And those claims, as well as the people making them, have been examined and dismissed many years ago. A responsible blogger makes some attempt to check his facts before merely parroting what he reads on some other site.
Tell me, did you condemn that at the time, Mr Independent?
I, like most military people, can't stand John Kerry for his acts upon returning home from Vietnam. Having served with similar officers, he comes across as someone who merely went there to stamp his ticket and made sure that mild injuries were written up so that he could leave sooner rather than later. As I've said, I've served with similar officers and don't exactly think highly of them. That doesn't mean that they aren't doing the job when they're there, but it also means that the men and the mission aren't their highest concerns. But not remembering much of what the Swift Boaters claimed, I'm not exactly sure what it is they stated that was factually inaccurate. It is worth mentioning of course that these attacks against McCain pre-date the Swift Boat crowd. Further, I'm not sure what being a Republican, Democrat, or Independent has to do with hating John Kerry. Many military people I know from all political persuasions think equally little of him.
refuses to say that he didn't call his wife a c---
I personally don't care what he may have said to his wife in a moment in anger, whether or not it actually happened. I take it you've never been married and therefore never said things to your wife in anger that you later regretted.
To be precise, I was implying that most people who have chosen service in the military, such as John McCain, are generally better than those like yourself.
I don't buy that logic at all. Why is someone who chooses a life in the military generally "better than" someone who does not? This is precisely what I mean when I state that you have an authoritarian mindset.
Many of the world's most foul specimens have at one point served in their nations armed forces, it is simply stupid and illogical to say that anyone who serves is "better than" those who do not. By that logic Mussolini and Hitler are "better than" Mandela. You really do come out with the most mindless tosh.
If you have no idea, then do some research, blindly repeating information that had been dismissed discredited many years ago. And here's a more recent and smaller article addressing the same issue.
The links you provide do not establish what you claim. They certainly do not discredit Colonel Hopper, indeed they are dealing with someone else entirely. They say that there is "some truth" to the claims but that "collectively they do not prove McCain was involved in “collaborations with the enemy”. That's hardly discrediting the claims. Indeed, it is stating that there is some truth to them.
And tell me, as Colonel Hopper also served, is he not deserving of the same respect that you are demanding we give to McCain? I wonder if you even watched the videos and suspect that you have simply automatically jumped to McCain's defence here.
And those claims, as well as the people making them, have been examined and dismissed many years ago
If they have, then you have brought no proof of that to the table.
I, like most military people, can't stand John Kerry for his acts upon returning home from Vietnam.
In other words the swift boating of Kerry was fine but people are "a piece of shit" if they hand the same treatment out to McCain. You are such a Republican whore.
I personally don't care what he may have said to his wife in a moment in anger, whether or not it actually happened.
You don't care if someone calls their wife a c---? Do you call your wife such things in moments of anger? What does it say about the character of anyone who call their wife such a thing?
This is the final proof that you really will defend anything that a Republican does.
I don't buy that logic at all.
You are right, it doesn't hold the world over. But in the US at least, those who serve are generally of a higher moral fiber than thos who feel its more psycho leftwing extremists such as yourself, who feel it far more important to espouse their extremist philosophy as opposed to making sacrifices for the betterment of others.
They say that there is "some truth" to the claims
Are you intentionally daft? They point to things that McCain has admitted in his biography as the "some truth", and not at all to the wild-eyed claims made by this fringe group. This is yet another example of you reading one thing and trying to put a spin on it that's not there. Is objectiveness completely beyond you? Do you just lack the capacity to make rational judgments?
In other words the swift boating of Kerry was fine
Since the Swift Boat organization was referring to his behavior in country, and I spoke about his behavior when he left Vietnam, I'm not sure what the rationale is for you to make such a claim. I explicitly stated that I was unfamiliar with any non-factual statements the Swift Boat organization made. I did say that Kerry's dishonorable conduct when he left Vietnam has brought the enmity of most of those who served, which has nothing to do with the SB'ers.
You don't care if someone calls their wife a c---? Do you call your wife such things in moments of anger? What does it say about the character of anyone who call their wife such a thing?
No I never called my wife that, but I certainly understand the irrational rage that a spouse can cause the other. Maybe this is why this is a complete non-story in the US.
You are right, it doesn't hold the world over. But in the US at least, those who serve are generally of a higher moral fiber than thos who feel its more psycho leftwing extremists such as yourself, who feel it far more important to espouse their extremist philosophy as opposed to making sacrifices for the betterment of others.
You are a dishonest nutball who has avoided all of my points. Was Mussolini "better" than Gandhi? Was Hitler "better" than Mandela?
Your point makes utterly no sense, and you are trying to move the goalposts to hide that fact.
Is objectiveness completely beyond you? Do you just lack the capacity to make rational judgments?
That's too funny coming from a person who lives in a democracy and yet believes that certain human beings are "better" than others. Oh, and the group that are "better" happens to be the group that you belong to!
No I never called my wife that, but I certainly understand the irrational rage that a spouse can cause the other. Maybe this is why this is a complete non-story in the US.
It's a non story in the US because the media is very much on side with McCain and are buying into this flip-floppers "Maverick" myth.
Okay, so let me get this straight; this is not a word that you would ever call any woman, this is not a word that I would ever call any woman, but you "understand" why someone would use such a phrase due to "irrational rage"?
She implied he was going thin on top and this produced "irrational rage" as you call it.
You would put a person capable of "irrational rage" over an innocent joke about the fact that he's losing his hair in charge of the nuclear button? If he goes into "irrational rage" over an innocent comment from someone that he loves, how can he possibly be left in charge of the security of the planet?
Was Mussolini "better" than Gandhi? Was Hitler "better" than Mandela?
Are you trying to draw some parallel between member of the US military and those above? I don't expect you to accept my stand that those in comfortable Western democracies who sacrifice and choose service to others are of generally more social worth than the shrill few such as yourself who give little to society other than to attack those who make their freedoms possible. So we can just agree to disagree.
You would put a person capable of "irrational rage" over an innocent joke about the fact that he's losing his hair in charge of the nuclear button?
You make assumptions that I think McCain said that in the first place, despite there being no evidence of it. But if he did, or if Obama called his wife something, or if Hillary called Bill an adultrous piece of shit, it really has little if any effect on my vote, nor apparently the votes of most Americans.
Are you trying to draw some parallel between member of the US military and those above?
No, I am giving examples of people who volunteered to serve in the military and people who have not and attempting to test your theory that the former are "better" than the latter. Your theory simply does not hold water.
You make assumptions that I think McCain said that in the first place, despite there being no evidence of it.
There is evidence of it in the form of the allegation which your candidate refuses to deny.
However, we now know that you would place a man who explodes in "irrational rage" - your definiton, not mine - over a comment about his hair in charge of the nuclear button. As long as that man is a Republican.
And if you think Hillary calling Bill "an adulterous piece of shit" is the same as McCain calling his wife a c---, then you have no understanding of how insulting the term c--- is to most people.
I suspect though that you do understand how insulting that term is, but you are almost computer programmed to say anything to defend the Republican candidate.
There is evidence of it in the form of the allegation
Evidence in the form of allegation? That's priceless. And it certainly goes to explaining how your mind works as well.
However, we now know that you would place a man who explodes in "irrational rage" - your definiton, not mine - over a comment about his hair in charge of the nuclear button.
No, what we know is that somebody allegedly calling his wife a cunt isn't a deal breaker, given that there are so many more important things to judge a candidate by.
Evidence in the form of allegation? That's priceless. And it certainly goes to explaining how your mind works as well.
Yes, a man who says he was there is being interviewed saying that McCain was a traitor who gave secrets to the Vietnamese. His eyewitness testimony is his evidence.
No, what we know is that somebody allegedly calling his wife a cunt isn't a deal breaker, given that there are so many more important things to judge a candidate by.
If the person who had done that terrible thing had been Barack Obama you would care. You make Barack responsible for things other people say and forgive McCain for something which comes out of his own mouth. It's just another example of the bias which permeates every inch of your psyche. You will defend ANYTHING the Republican candidate does. You're worse than a joke Jason.
Yes, a man who says he was there is being interviewed saying that McCain was a traitor who gave secrets to the Vietnamese. His eyewitness testimony is his evidence.
What are you babbling about now? I thought we were talking about McCain supposedly calling his wife a cunt. Are you saying now that his wife being a cunt was a secret that he told the Vietnamese under torture?
If the person who had done that terrible thing had been Barack Obama you would care. You make Barack responsible for things other people say and forgive McCain for something which comes out of his own mouth. It's just another example of the bias which permeates every inch of your psyche. You will defend ANYTHING the Republican candidate does. You're worse than a joke Jason.
I already said I really don't give a flying fuck what a candidate may or may not have said to his spouse, and included Obama in that statement.
You make Barack responsible for things other people say
Dude, you sound like you're on the verge of tears because I've been picking on your best friend or something. I didn't realize you and "Barack" were so tight. In any event, I don't "make Barack responsible for things other people say", unless those people work for him and are speaking for him. Aside from that, the only thing he's responsible for is what he says and what he does, same as any candidate.
and forgive McCain for something which comes out of his own mouth.
Since I have no concrete knowledge of McCain saying anything he needs my forgiveness for, I haven't forgiven him for anything.
It's just another example of the bias which permeates every inch of your psyche.
Really, you're a psychoanalyst now? Did you learn that skill in a psychology course in university? No? A few hardcore psych books at least? No, books are too long. A three page blog posting on the Internet maybe? Shit, we've already determined that three pages is also too long. I know, a one paragraph review of a book on Amazon, right? A mind is a terrible thig to waste.
What are you babbling about now? I thought we were talking about McCain supposedly calling his wife a cunt.
No, we were talking at that point about the testimony of Colonel Hopper. Do keep up.
And if you keep using the c--- word without abbreviating it I will ban you. That word is highly offensive to many people and there are people who read here who would be offended by it. You are only using it in that way in an attempt to make it sound like it's no big deal. Stop it. It's one of the most offensive things that you can say. I know you are probably ignorant of what is PC and what is not, but if it's something you wouldn't call your wife then don't plaster it all over here.
In any event, I don't "make Barack responsible for things other people say", unless those people work for him and are speaking for him.
You have gone on for weeks about Reverend Wright as if what he says is in some way representative of what Obama thinks.
Really, you're a psychoanalyst now?
Even people who occasionally drop by here recognise you as my "resident Kool Aid drinker" almost immediately.
And I know it's cheap to point out typos, apologies, but this was too good to miss.
A mind is a terrible thig to waste
It's terrible thig indeed.
That word is highly offensive to many people and there are people who read here who would be offended by it.
Would you prefer pussy, vagina, box, or what?
I know you are probably ignorant of what is PC and what is not
No, I'm just not interested in PC, particularly since I have yet to see much here that would even remotely qualify as PC. But if a single English word holds such power over you, you probably have no business writing.
It dawns on me now though that perhaps this word that makes you quiver has a more powerful meaning in Britain then it does here, because quite honestly I can think of many words which are far more offensive. Would you like me to list them?
You have gone on for weeks about Reverend Wright as if what he says is in some way representative of what Obama thinks.
No, I've been quite clear. Obama's problem with Wright is that it took him twenty years to decide that he had a problem with Wright. Oprah Winfrey figured it out pretty quickly and moved on to another church.
Even people who occasionally drop by here recognise you as my "resident Kool Aid drinker" almost immediately.
Another sycophant let loose from the asylum throwing labels at me is of no consequence.
Would you prefer pussy, vagina, box, or what?
You can call it the C word or use the term c---.
It dawns on me now though that perhaps this word that makes you quiver has a more powerful meaning in Britain then it does here, because quite honestly I can think of many words which are far more offensive. Would you like me to list them?
This is word that you have admitted you would not use in front of your wife. Don't use such a word here and stop pretending that you don't know how offensive that word is. What planet are you from?
This is word that you have admitted you would not use in front of your wife.
No, I said I wouldn't call my wife that, not that I wouldn't use the word in front of her. There's a huge difference. There are many things I wouldn't call my wife and that word has no special significance among other things I wouldn't call her.
Maybe it's a cultural thing. Over here that word is the worst thing that you could ever call a woman.
I would be quite astonished if it's not a big deal over there. The reaction from the McCain crowd when he was asked about it in public certainly seemed one of shock.
The reaction from the McCain crowd when he was asked about it in public certainly seemed one of shock.
Most people would be shocked by a questioner using a word in public that is not one spoken in polite company, as well as the audacity of the qestion in general.
And yet you don't think it would be a big deal if they found that this was a word McCain had used towards his wife? Do you think even those on the religious right would find it no big deal?
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